Thursday, September 21, 2006

Harold And Wagner Tag-Team A Fool

[Note as of September 25th: many thanks to Ron D. for pointing out my error about Antwerp being in Holland. It is, of course, in Belgium. I actually meant to refer to the Luftwaffe bombing of Rotterdam in Holland. - HAC]

Okay, this is going to be a bit complicated to read. Our comrade Wagner sent me a piece of neo-con drivel which he had commented on, and asked me to add my own comments, which I did. The original drivel is in black, Wagner's comments are in blue, and mine are in red. The original title was removed at some point along the line of a dozen or so forwards. - HAC

Sixty-three years ago, Nazi Germany had overrun almost all of Europe and hammered England to the verge of bankruptcy and defeat, and
had sunk more than four hundred British ships in their convoys between England and America for food and war materials.

[Remember, England declared war on on Germany.]

[Hitler never wanted war with England, and in fact sent his deputy Rudolf Hess in May 1941 to try one final time to negotiate and close that second front before the main show opened in Russia.]

At that time the US was in an isolationist, pacifist mood, and most Americans wanted nothing to do with the European or the Asian war.

[America should have remained so as far as Europe is concerned and as the majority of Americans wanted.]

Then along came Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, and in outrage Congress unanimously declared war on Japan , and the following day
on Germany, which had not yet attacked us. It was a dicey thing.
We had few allies.

[Again, America declared war on Germany!]

[Hitler did not want war with America, as witness his lack of any aircaft carriers at all, which he would have built had he been planning to "conquer America and make us all speak German as he has been accused of doing.]

[Winston Churchill had been conspiring with President Franklin Delano Roosevelt for months to get America in England's war, as England had bit off more than England could chew.]

France was not an ally, as the Vichy government of France quickly aligned itself with its German occupiers. Germany was certainly not an ally, as Hitler was intent on setting up a Thousand Year Reich in Europe. Japan was not an ally, as it was well on its way to owning and controlling all of Asia. Together, Japan and Germany had long-range plans of invading Canada and Mexico , as launching pads to get into the United States over our northern and southern borders, after they finished gaining control of Asia and Europe.

[Now, that's a commonly held misconception, but it is so far removed from historical fact that it's just plain bizarre. I have never heard of any reputable or even disreputable historian who has ever made any serious suggestion or offered any evidence that either Germany or Japan ever entertained any plans whatsoever for the invasion of the continental United States. It simply was beyond the capacity of both their countries, and they knew this perfectly well. Again I must point out the complete absence of any aircraft carriers in the German Navy. The closest anyone has ever come to contemplating a conventional military attack on the U. S. was in World War One, when the Germans designed several Hindenburg-class Zeppelins to bomb New York, but the war ended before these even got off the drawing board.]

America's only allies then were England, Ireland,

[Er, actually, no. Ireland was neutral, much to Churchill's chagrin. Churchill even offered Irish Taioseach Eamon De Valera the Six Counties of Northern Ireland if the Free State would come in on the allied side. De Valera declined, not so much because he was pro-German as because he knew he could nevert trust Winston Churchill to keep his word after the war. He remembered the way the Irish had been shafted at Versailles.]

Scotland, Canada, Australia, and Russia. That was about it. All of Europe, from Norway to Italy, except Russia in the East, was already under the Nazi heel.

[As past President Ronald Reagan use to say; "There you go again!" Remember, Italy under Benito Mussolini signed a Tripartite Pact between Germany, Italy and Japan in Rome on November 6, 1937. As for the claims that Germany and Japan had long range plans to invade Canada and Mexico in order to have a launching pad into the United States, it is preposterous. There is no evidence in the world to back this claim up!]

America was certainly not prepared for war. America had drastically downgraded most of its military forces after WWI and throughout the depression, so that at the outbreak of WW2, army units were training with broomsticks because they didn't have guns, and cars with "tank" painted on the doors because they didn't have real tanks. And a huge chunk of our navy had just been sunk or damaged at Pearl Harbor.

[This is true and another reason for the United States to stay out of the war in Europe and devote its energy to fighting Japan.]

Britain had already gone bankrupt, saved only by the donation of $600 million in gold bullion in the Bank of England , that was actually the property of Belgium, given by Belgium to England to carry on the war when Belgium was overrun by Hitler (a little known fact).

[This actually might be true about the Belgian gold reserve. I'm sure Churchill's Jewish financier friends like the Rothschilds and the Sassoons, the Morgenthals and Lehmann Brothers and Goldman Sachs etc. would have made off with the Belgian gold reserve, or any gold reserve, that they could find a way to glom onto.]

Actually, Belgium surrendered in one day,

[I think he's confusing Belgium with Denmark. Belgium took a couple of weeks, if I recall correctly. Obviously this guy has never seen the movie Sieg Im Westen with gripping footage of the glider assault on Eben Emael, etc., the pontoon bridges being thrown across the canals under fire by the Wehrmacht engineers, etc.]

because it was unable to oppose the German invasion, and the Germans bombed Brussels into rubble the next day just to prove they could.

[Uh, no. If memory serves, Brussels was declared an open city. I think he's confusing Brussels with Rotterdam, which is in Holland, but if somebody cares to look it up I'll correct this. I'm not bothering to do any serious research on this joker's allegations; they're hysterical and all over the place and to seriously research responses to him would imply that he has something to say worth refuting, which he doesn't. He's just a neocon flack and part of Jug-Ears' amen corner, and as such is an intellectual featherweight.]

Britain had already been holding out for two years in the face of staggering shipping loses and the near-decimation of its air force in the Battle of Britain, and was saved from being overrun by Germany only because Hitler made the mistake of thinking the Brits were a relatively minor threat that could be dealt with later, and first turning his attention to Russia , at a time when England was on the verge of collapse, in the late summer of 1940.

[Yadda yadda yadda. All this looks like standard crap so far.]

Ironically, Russia saved America's butt by putting up a desperate fight for two years, until the US got geared up to begin hammering away at Germany.
[Er, actually, it was the other way around. It was America who saved the Soviet Union's butt through shipping them every piece of military hardware we could through Murmansk, including material we badly needed in the Pacific and the lack of which may well have contributed to early American defeats in the Pacific and certainly delayed the American arrival in the European theater.]

Russia lost something like 24 million people in the sieges of Stalingrad and Moscow alone... 90% of them from cold and starvation, mostly civilians, but also more than a MILLION soldiers.

[The Russians lost millions in the war, true, but A) nowhere near 24 million, and B) many of them were murdered by Stalin, not the Germans. I knew a Russian girl at D1 who told me three of her family had been killed by the Germans during the war and over 50 murdered by Stalin during the Purges of the 1930s.]

[Russia did not save anyone's butt! On the contrary, Russia was not able to to move forward until it, like Britain, started receiving a large amount of war aid under the American lend-lease arrangement. Most experts agree that if the U.S. had not gone to war against the Germans, that the war with Russia would have left Germany too weak to continue its fight with the west and Hitler would have sought a peace treaty. With the advanced weapons that Germany had under development ready for manufacture and with some in use, America with its hands full fighting Japan, would have led its allies to accept.]

Had Russia surrendered, Hitler would have been able to focus his entire war effort against the Brits, then America. And the Nazis could possibly have won the war.

[True, although this guy has Hitler's priorities in reverse.]

All of this is to illustrate that turning points in history are often dicey things. And now, we find ourselves at another one of those key moments in history. There is a very dangerous minority in Islam that either has, or wants and may soon have, the ability to deliver small nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons, almost anywhere in the world.

[Actually, it's not a minority at all. The neocons and Jews and Christian crazies do have one point. Right now pretty much all Muslims wouldn't mind seeing all Americans deep-fried in their own McDonalds' fryers, which in view of our habit of constantly insulting them like the Pope recently did and that Danish cartoonist did, and our habit of going berserk and slaughtering them right, left and center like some crazed sniper in the Austin University Tower, not to mention threatening to nuke Mecca and other charming traits, is not really too surprising. For some strange reason, these people seem to resent it when we drop bombs on them and murder and starve their children, turn their cities into fortified concentration camps, and our soldiers rape their women and subject their men to homosexual bondage in Abu Ghraib and such merry pranks. Strange. Jeez, guys, lighten up!]

The Jihadis, the militant Muslims, are basically Nazis in kaffiyahs -- they believe that Islam, a radically conservative form of Wahhabi Islam, should own and control the Middle East first, then Europe, then the world,

[Actually, while it's true that Osama Bin Laden is a Wahabi, most of his men are not. They're Sunnis, mostly Egyptians and Jordanians and guys from the Emirates, with the odd Moroccan and African thrown in. The Muslims that are giving us the most trouble are not Wahabis. They are Shi'ites and Sunnis and whatever strange variation the Taliban is, which I forget.]

And that all who do not bow to their will of thinking should be killed, enslaved, or subjugated. They want to finish the Holocaust, destroy Israel, and purge the world of Jews. This is their mantra.

[Let me guess. This guy's a Late Great Planet Earther, right?]

There is also a civil war raging in the Middle East -- for the most part nota hot war, but a war of ideas. Islam is having its Inquisition and its Reformation, but it is not known yet which will win -- the Inquisitors, or the Reformationists.

[Actually, the "moderate Muslim street" is pretty much a neocon myth. We've made damned sure of that with our behavior. Most Muslims equate "moderate Islam" with their dictators like that charming gent Musharraf in Pakistan with his well-used gallows big enough to hang twenty people at once, and other toadying to America.]

If the Inquisition wins, then the Wahhabis, the Jihadis, will control theMiddle East, the OPEC oil, and the US, European, and Asian economies. The techno-industrial economies will be at the mercy of OPEC -- not an OPEC dominated by the educated, rational Saudis of today, but an OPEC dominated by the Jihadis.You want gas in your car? You want heating oil next winter? You want the dollar to be worth anything? You better hope the Jihad, the Muslim Inquisition, loses, and the Islamic Reformation wins.

[Sigh...yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda. This is just the usual neocon bullshit. Doesn't really need much comment.]

If the Reformation movement wins, that is, the moderate Muslims who believe that Islam can respect and tolerate other religions, and live in peace with the rest of the world, and move out of the 10th century into the 21st, then the troubles in the Middle East will eventually fade away, and a moderate and prosperous Middle East will emerge.

[Jesus Christ! Is there anyone in the whole world, besides ridge-running bush apes like this with nothing but pork fat between their ears, who seriously believes that this is possible after what we and our Israeli thugs have done to these people over the past sixty years? I almost wonder if this guy can really be so stupid as to believe what he's saying, or whether he's just some paid flack for Jug-Ears blowing neocon smoke.]

We have to help the Reformation win, and to do that we have to fight the Inquisition, i.e., the Wahhabi movement, the Jihad, Al Qaeda and the Islamic terrorist movements. We have to do it somewhere. And we can't do it everywhere at once. We have created a focal point for the battle at a time and place of our Iraq. Not in New York, not in London, or Paris or Berlin, but in Iraq, wherewe are doing two important things.

(1) We deposed Saddam Hussein. Whether Saddam Hussein was directly involved in 9/11 or not, it is undisputed that Saddam has been actively supporting the terrorist movement for decades. Saddam is a terrorist.

[Uh, no. This is just plain not true, in the sense that he means it. Saddam was a nasty piece of work, no doubt, and I wouldn't have wanted to live under him, but his interest was always in Iraq and holding on to power. He went to war with Iran in 1980 with US/CIA backing and he thought that Kuwait was to be his reward, only Bush I double-crossed him.]

Saddam is, or was, a weapon of mass destruction, who is responsible for the deaths of probably more than a million Iraqis and two million Iranians.

[See above. None of which justifies our invading Iraq in 2003, especially since Saddam was our boy when he did all those things.]

(2) We created a battle, a confrontation, a flash point, with Islamic terrorism in Iraq. We have focused the battle. We are killing bad people,

[Like the 15 year-old Iraqi girl who was stalked, raped, and murdered, along with her whole family, by Pfc. Steven Green and his buddies, a crime against humanity so noxious even the Army itself couldn't ignore it?]

and the ones we get there we won't have to get here. We also have a good shot at creating a democratic, peaceful Iraq, which will be a catalyst for democratic change in the rest of the Middle East, and an outpost for a stabilizing American military presence in the Middle East for as long as it is needed.

[Oh, HORSE SHIT!!!!]

World War II, the war with the German and Japanese Nazis, really began with a "whimper" in 1928. It did not begin with Pearl Harbor. It began with the Japanese invasion of China It was a war for fourteen years before America joined it. It officially ended in 1945 -- a 17 year war -- and was followed by another decade of US occupation in Germany and Japan to get those countries reconstructed and running on their own again ... a 27 year war.

[I've always thought this is a stretch, but yes, some historians do date it from Manchuria 1928.]

World War II cost the United States an amount equal to approximately a full year's GDP -- adjusted for inflation, equal to about $12 trillion dollars. WWII cost America more than 400,000 killed in action, and nearly100,000 still missing in action. The Iraq war has, so far, cost the US about $160 billion, which is roughly what 9/11 cost New York. It has also cost about 2,200 American lives,which is roughly 2/3 of the 3,000 lives that the Jihad snuffed on 9/11. But the cost of not fighting and winning WWII would have been unimaginably greater -- a world dominated by German and Japanese Nazism.

[I don't see much point in continuing to simply call this guy an idiot. He's simply regurgitating sixty year-old war propaganda.]

Americans have a short attention span, conditioned by 30 second sound bites, 60 minute TV shows, and 2 hour movies in which everything comes out okay.

[Tell me about it.]

The real world is not like that. It is messy, uncertain, and sometimes bloody and ugly. Always has been, and probably always will be. The bottom line is that we will have to deal with Islamic terrorism until we defeat it, whenever that is. It will not go away if we ignore it.

[Not as long as we keep allowing Israel to keep four million people in conditions that aren't fit for cattle in the world's largest open-air prison, no, it won't go away. Nor should it.]

If the US can create a reasonably democratic and stable Iraq, then we have an "England" in the Middle East, a platform, from which we can work to help modernize and moderate the Middle East

[What planet is this goof living on?]

The history of the world is the clash between the forces of relative civility and civilization, and the barbarians clamoring at the gates. The Iraq war is merely another battle in this ancient and never-ending war. And now, for the first time ever, the barbarians are about to get nuclear weapons. Unless somebody prevents them. We have four options:

1. We can defeat the Jihad now, before it gets nuclear weapons.

[And just how does this yo-yo suggest "we" do that? America has thrown everything except the kitchen sink, i.e. actual nukes, at them, and it doesn't seem to have done much good. Does anyone seriously think that if the U. S. military could "win" this deranged war against a billion people and a third of the globe, they would not have done so years ago? We're getting our asses kicked, and everybody in the world but a few delusionals like this knows it.]

2. We can fight the Jihad later, after it gets nuclear weapons (which may be as early as next year, if Iran's progress on nuclear weapons is what Iran claims it is).

[In other words, nuke Tehran, which is what the neocons are plumping for and what they'll probably do after the November elections, raising the price of gasoline to $9.00 a gallon at the pumps and wrecking the world economy when the Iranians shut off the Straits of Hormuz, through which 40% of the world's raw petroleum passes. In order to grab all the available oil in compensation we'll have to invade Venezuela as well, which will bog us down in South America as well as the Middle East and utterly force the re-institution of the draft for more cannon fodder, which I suspect they're going to do after the November elections. These neocon bastards have this strange, almost erotic fascination with mushroom clouds. They want to see one go up so bad they can taste it.]

3. We can surrender to the Jihad and accept its dominance in the Middle East, now, in Europe in the next few years or decades, and ultimately in America.

[By "surrender" I suppose he means admit that we made an incredibly stupid mistake because we elected an incredibly stupid man as President, bring our soldiers home to our own part of the world where they belong, and let the people of the Middle East decide their own destiny. Yeah, I know, unthinkable, isn't it?]

4. Or, we can stand down now, and pick up the fight later when the Jihad ismore widespread and better armed, perhaps after the Jihad has dominated France and Germany and maybe most of the rest of Europe. It will, of course, be more dangerous, more expensive, and much bloodier.

[Or we can actually make peace with them by cutting Israel off at the knees and telling the Arabs, "Enjoy, nebbich!" I think they'd be so overjoyed at finally getting to take on those kikes man to man, without their American big brother behind them and billions of dollars worth of American weaponry to hide behind, that they would forgive us all the rest.]

If you oppose this war, I hope you like the idea that your children, or grandchildren, may live in an Islamic America under the Mullahs and the Sharia, an America that resembles Iran today.

[As opposed to the Jewish America run by soulless men in business suits and tub-thumping evangelical yay-hoos with brains the size of walnuts, like we live in today?]

The history of the world is the history of civilizational clashes, cultural clashes. All wars are about ideas, ideas about what society and civilization should be like, and the most determined always win.

[WRONG. All wars, without exception, are economic in origin, although granted, sometimes you have to look really deep to find the underlying economic casus belli. In the American Civil War, for example, it was about who would control the natural and agricultural resources and raw materials of the South, northern (often Jewish) capitalists, or a small, highly-educated Anglo-Saxon and Christian planter elite. In the case of the Middle East, the oil factor springs to mind.]

Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win. The pacifists always lose, because the anti-pacifists kill them. Remember, perspective is everything, and America 's schools teach too little history for perspective to be clear, especially in the young American mind.

[So instead of "Heather Has Two Mommies" you want the schools to teach blind obedience to a Stalin-like American empire run by neocons and Jews? Six of one, half a dozen of the other, as far as I'm concerned. Jewish neoconservatism is just as loathsome as Jewish liberalism.]

The Cold war lasted from about 1947 at least until the Berlin Wall came downin 1989. Forty-two years. Europe spent the first half of the 19th centuryfighting Napoleon, and from 1870 to 1945 fighting GermanyWorld War II began in 1928, lasted 17 years, plus a ten year occupation, and the US still has troops in Germany and Japan World War II resulted in the death of more than 50 million people, maybe more than 100 million people, depending on which estimates you accept. The US has taken more than 2,000 KIA in Iraq . The US took more than 4,000 killed in action on the morning of June 6, 1944, the first day of the Normandy invasion to rid Europe of Nazi imperialism. In WWII the US averaged 2,000 KIA a week -- for four years. Most of the individual battles of WWII lost more Americans than the entire Iraq war has done so far.

[This maroon reminds me of Patton--his men used to call him "Old Blood and Guts, his guts and our blood." I wonder how many sons or daughters the writer of this piece has in the military who are actually exposing their precious privileged rich-kid skins to rebel steel and shot in Iraq along with the farm boys from Iowa and the trailer park kids from West Virginia who are in uniform because Jug-Ears has wrecked the economy and they can't get any job besides flipping burgers for Asian engineers and affirmative action black and brown "managerial" yuppies and wealthy neocons at home?]

But the stakes are at least as high ... A world dominated by representative governments [of Jews and wealthy multinational corporate businessmen]
with civil rights, human rights, and personal freedoms ... or a world dominated by a radical Islamic Wahhabi movement, by the Jihad, under the Mullahs and the Sharia (Islamic law). It's difficult to understand why the American left does not grasp this. [Because they're just as dumb as you are.] They favor human rights, civil rights, liberty and freedom, but evidently not for Iraqis.

[Judging from the atrocity reports coming out of Iraq every day, neither do the U. S. military.]

"Peace activists" always seem to demonstrate here in America, where it's safe. Why don't we see Peace activists demonstrating in Iran, Syria, Iraq , Sudan, North Korea, in the places that really need peace activism the most?

[You obviously haven't heard of my favorite lefty, a brave and noble young woman named Rachel Corrie.]

The liberal mentality is supposed to favor human rights, civil rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc., but if the Jihad wins, wherever the Jihad wins, it is the end of civil rights, human rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc. Americans who oppose the liberation of Iraq are coming down on the side of their own worst enemy.

[Wagner, I did what you asked and commented on this tripe, but it's just neocon BS and not very good neocon BS at that. David Horowitz and Charles Krauthammer are at least entertaining and incisive in their arrogance. Pass my comments along where you please, but I doubt it will do any good. Stupidity and ignorance on this scale is invincible and irredeemable. These people don't need to be argued with or debated with they need to be...well, before 9/11 I would have told you what needs to be done with them, but thanks to Jug-Ears and his tawdry police state he's created, I'd better not. - HAC]


Anonymous Anonymous said...


5:01 PM  
Anonymous Perry Huntoon said...

"Then along came Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, and in outrage Congress unanimously declared war on Japan , and the following day
on Germany, which had not yet attacked us. It was a dicey thing.
We had few allies."

This is incorrect. The US declaration of war against Germany came on December 11 AFTER Hitler declared war on the U.S. While Hitler's declaration of war may be considered as justifiably provoked, it nevertheless was a major blunder.

6:24 PM  
Anonymous Curt said...

I agree, well done. I just don't understand how it is that people can write things like this text you've so amply annotated without...melting or something. Okay, that's not true...I understand it perfectly well.

What did you think of Chavez' address at the UN? "I smell sulfur," "The American people want peace, the government does not," and so on? It's symbolic at best but I thought it was pretty great. From the few delegates that weren't afraid to be in the hall during his address he received a standing ovation about 5 minutes long. Of course that was cut from most coverage.

Great job, sir.

9:14 PM  

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